go with momentum: interview with Kinlaw

good morning ~

(click the link / rave dome wall to listen)

today’s track might be the closest thing I’ve ever made to a Nine Inch Nails song

really great interview today, do check that out below

just wanted to quickly mention that I’ll be playing Philadelphia on Saturday at Jerry’s on Front - the great drone artist Jason Calhoun is set to open and my longtime pals and great post-jazz duo the Early will be doing their last set as a purely east-coast-based band for a while - will be a great night! here’s da flyer:

now you get to read this great conversation I had recently with Kinlaw, a musician, choreographer, and performer of unusual exertion and compelling dedication. definitely recommend watching this music video to catch the vibe. her excellent new album - gut ccheck - is streaming everywhere and is also available as a hyper-limited edition art book, which a few of you can still order on Bandcamp.

K: I’m Kinlaw. I’m a musician, a performance artist, and…a person who knows you! Born in North Carolina and based in New York City currently and I recently released an album, my second solo record called gut ccheck.

MBB: Yeah! I wanna talk about it. There’s a really particular vibe on this record - you’re doing a lot of direct-to-listener, spoken command. Command might be the key word to understanding what’s happening on this record, with the song titles in all caps. Did you set out to try and sort of stamp the listener?

K: Yeah, maybe “catch the listener.” I’m hoping to catch them. Momentum, energy, and force, raging to a point of mania all play really critical roles. Everything runs through this translation through the live show and the visuals and the songs themselves. Through intention with the presentation.

There’s also this ongoing theme around language and words and writing. The album title is intentionally misspelled which reflects something compelling for me in avoiding being too precious or too controlled. All of the plans for this happened as a result of writing down ideas quickly and trying not to edit or second guess or double back [gestures manic thumb phone typing]. I try to go with momentum. And when you go with momentum it is sometimes flawed, but I like that.

MBB: Absolutely, there’s an urgency to everything. It’s like you have too much momentum to be accurately captured by typing things out.

K: I actually do feel like things are urgent. If they’re not? I usually just sit back and let myself take a breath. But I do think that things are urgent which is why I’m making work that feels that way.

The way that my work is being presented now…it is through an act of force [gestures ripping open] and willpower. It is urgent and it happens because I really, really feel like it’s necessary. When something of mine does get made, it is an act of force.

MBB: This might be an impossible question to answer but - do you have a sense of why these things are urgent?

K: [sigh, long pause] it’s a combination. Pulling from my story, my life: family, lack of resources, the ways that I interpret or reject genre. Then there's our world together. I show effort, struggle, push choreography over the edge with athleticism, sometimes to the point of falling but most certainly to the point of near collapse. This is how I push back on fucked up conditions of the working artist– I just expose the work. I think it's important we show effort, in my case I play with amplifying it, but really any way you might want to do it is fine. I jump on the treadmill, while critiquing the treadmill of the music industry, something I am participating in but at the same time hate. And all the while, I think it's urgent that the ways I know body, performance, and sound can exist with each other, and can push and pull each other, for the better are meant to be shared. I get the most out of this work when I see it trickle out and give someone else a new set of permissions. That’s really what I want to see. It’s not just about my own experience. It gets flipped out, it shoots out to others, it shoots back to me. A cycle. 

MBB: Right, and for people who haven’t seen you perform live - you do get some sense of it from this album’s music videos but your performance style is…unfettered is the word that comes to mind. You’re precise and in control but what you’re in control of feels like it could be almost anything. I’ve had the chance to see you perform in two very different contexts - more of a black box theater with more precise theater lighting that involved perilously running on a treadmill - and hey by the way, I did end up buying the same portable treadmill based on your recommendation [laughter]. And then you performed at Basilica SoundScape last year which was in the big, main room in broad daylight where we kind of magically fogged it out apocalyptically during the opening band’s set - it was a bardo haze filled with orange ping pongs. You never step into the same performance river twice, seemingly. Maybe you could describe what you’re doing with the live realization of the work?

K: Even if the conditions stay the same - which they never do - you’ll never step into the same river. One of the things I’m most proud of is that I’m flexible. I’m seasoned in this way that allows me to take in the conditions of a room before I perform. Of course it requires planning, a little bit of time, and a team on lights, sound, it’s a group project. I’ve done shows that I’m so proud of this year with just a living room and a flashlight - those shows are extraordinary, honestly.

I can’t tell what came first - a lack of resources or this flexibility - but I’m proud now that I know what my purpose is when I’m performing. If I know what my purpose is - and I have support through whatever team, even a small one - I can make a show happen anywhere. That’s a really important part of who I am. I’m always going to want to play in smaller spaces while also experimenting with larger spaces - it’s what I straddle.

MBB: I was really impressed that you were able to bring the same level of energy, intimacy, and transport to a 100-cap room as you did to a giant hall that holds 1,000 people. You were able to compel and hold both rooms equally. And what you’re saying totally resonates with me in my approach to playing shows - I always feel like it’s totally foolish to have too much of a plan before you lay eyes on the venue. You should be able to switch gears and take the material circumstances into account. And the audience often tells you what it wants, psychically.

K: Right, audience positioning, where you are in space, are they looking up - even before they sit down the show has already begun. Are you eye level? Are they in a fixed position? These are important architectural decisions. It can be easy to ignore some of these factors, particularly if you’re an artist on a long tour. This is coming from the perspective of someone who has done more one-offs lately. I know that when you do 30 dates back-to-back, there’s a level of fatigue that sets in.

I think that what you’re talking about in terms of performing solo - I grew into myself playing in bands, particularly one band I did for nearly a decade called SOFTSPOT. I love that band and we made some records I’m so proud of but towards the end of that era I found myself spearheading certain decisions regarding positioning and space and our relationship to the audience. But those changes to the format often made it so that the band couldn’t hear each other - it didn’t work, we couldn’t stay connected in the ways that a live band should. Towards the end of that project I could see that I was chipping away at the beauty. I was craving decisions made just for my interest, ideas that wouldn’t necessarily work as a 3 or 4-piece band.

MBB: That’s a nice point of transition for another topic I wanted to bring up with you. The artist OHYUNG and I discussed this a bit in our conversation - she’s gone from being a singular, DIY, scrappy fringe artist to now really swinging for the pop star fences, and a big part of that leveling up involved working with a team or with willing comrades. You mentioned your team earlier - what’s your perspective on believing in yourself enough to have a team? And what does your team do for you?

K: What the team does for me: it helps make things possible, it makes it so that I am not constantly advocating for myself in every aspect (even though I can do it). It is just so much better to have others. The scale that I’m working is well beyond what a self-funded solo artist is typically doing - I’m just way, way out of scope without having help.

I didn’t even start using the term “team” until a few years ago when it became clear: I have a great studio producer Sean, a creative director Kathleen who I’m constantly texting and scheming with, it was starting to churn in this way that could only be called a team. Back in the day we would have collaborations or just…friends…or accountability partners.

MBB: Bandmates, too.

K: Right, bandmates. I’ve always been someone who’s benefitted from talking out my ideas and externalizing things - I need to hear what they sound like to someone else, and with that view I can even potentially avoid missteps. And I feel like if you’re not misstepping, you’re not pushing, so I’m always looking to avoid the holes. I do that by reflecting back my ideas off my people.

Any kind of normal job with a salary…I see how they benefit by having so many people who know exactly what their job is. In an effort to keep my practice as absolutely sustainable and as long term as it can be I just know that having a dedicated team is what works for me. I’ve experienced a lot of confidence building through having the same people in my corner.

I’m also just a very loyal person! I’ve had the same friends for a very long time, I’ve always been in a relationship since day one - that’s me. I love being with people, I love not being isolated. So my personality really benefits from being in regular conversation with these brilliant people.

MBB: Do you feel like you have to rise to their belief in you?

K: I think I need to be consistent. It’s okay if there are days if I hath not risen [laughter]. That’s just the reality of things being long term, they’re not always at the tip top. But it does provide a system, a schedule, and a feeling of “let’s get back to it tomorrow” that I really get a lot from.

MBB: Yeah, I’d call that “doing the reps.” Some days you just have less within you, but showing up repeatedly is the only thing that leads to long term…results, I guess.

K: That’s pretty much the most important part of my practice and it’s been the only constant: I try again the next day. If you’re doing something with great consistency, it actually takes the dips or the hyperemotionality out of it. You can be like, okay - I’m going to approach tomorrow.

Like a lot of creative people, I have big feelings and big thoughts that I have to actively keep in check. And for me - especially in the last couple of years - I feel very solution oriented, very structure oriented. It gives me a bit of clearing, knowing that I will return to it the next day.

MBB: I love “solution oriented” - that’s merch, right there.

K: It’s really, really easy to go down a very truthful and real conversation with all the hardships behind music making and performance - there are so many - but as long as I choose to participate in this, I have to wrap my head around how things could potentially be better and just…drive full force in that direction.

MBB: “Draw a straight line and follow it” in a speeding vehicle.

K: Yes!

MBB: What was your experience playing Rewire festival recently?

K: Completely badass. [laughter] Yeah, I could describe it as a nice “hell yeah let’s go.” It was cool - it was something I really wanted to do. And not only did I do it, but I played three shows - every night of that festival. [sighs] I connected with so many local people, so many artists and music heads based in Europe which is - my goal.

MBB: Right, solutions oriented.

K: There’s something I love about going into the same space and doing the same show with the same team, like doing a theater run. And because of that we were able to introduce some more in depth things like wind, cue-to-cue lighting - I was able to try stuff. I love repetition and even though things will never be the same consistently, the familiarity with the conditions allows me to get better and better every single time I do it. Rewire was honestly so much.

MBB: That’s awesome - I didn’t realize you were so busy performing, I was gonna ask you if you saw any other great stuff there but it sounds like you were booked.

K: I was booked, but I did try to see a few things. I got to see Colin Self.

MBB: Oh, huge fan.

K: Yeah, I love Colin - I couldn’t make it to Colin’s actual show - we were performing at the same time - but I did get to go to a rehearsal. I basically got a show just for me. Colin is just…so good.

MBB: Yeah, that new album is fantastic.

K: That track! [sings and imitates] God, it’s so good!

Yeah, Zoë Mc Pherson is a DJ that I met and saw first at Rewire and also just hung out with Sweden - that was amazing, such a cool artist.

There were quite a few artists - Kianí Del Valle is a choreographer who premiered a piece the opening night of the festival. I really liked Rewire because they merged some large scale choreography into their programming. I was also just at a festival in Malmo, Sweden called Intonal - it was also primarily experimental music, but sporadically there’d be a performance piece or a dance piece. There were some installation artists working in tandem with the DJs, too. That really excites me - there’s a flow between performance and public artworks. It doesn’t have to be so tightly organized.

MBB: I wanted to ask you about working with Carlos [Hernandez]. I’m a longtime Ava Luna stan - I actually did sound for them once in college in like, 2008…

K: Wait, where?

MBB: Wesleyan, which is also how I know Jake Aron, someone you recorded vocals with.

K: Oh I was gonna ask if you knew Jake! He’s so good - he’s my voice box. All my vocals I do with Jake.

Yeah, Carlos Hernandez - great artist, both in Ava Luna and with his Carlos Truly solo project. The process of working with Carlos was pretty natural. I was doing a music residency at Pioneer Works and pretty quickly I called Carlos in to talk about some themes I was thinking about in songwriting. These were really quite restrictive - I just started off really intense, I was like: “all acoustic sounds, we’ll try to mimic electronic programming with a capella voices and acoustic material…” It was too much, extremely restrictive. But that got things going and churning. We did a lot of experimentation and songwriting at Pioneer Works, but only one of those tracks made it onto the album, which is BIGGER THAN U.

Carlos was an amazing partner, a songwriting partner and a co-producer. He is so down to switch gears, he is so down generally - he came upstate a bunch and we’d write in the house all day long. Spent a lot of time together, a really cool person. And he has a studio in Brooklyn so we did end up finalizing everything in a real studio, but most of the writing was done in my spaces.

And yeah, I did all of the vocal work with Jake Aron, and there’s some additional production work by an artist and engineer named Jonathan Schenke as well as Tony Seltzer, who's actually Carlos’ brother and is more in the hip hop world. I really enjoyed having all these different people to work with as we were putting the album together.

MBB: It’s super interesting to me that you have a connection to the 2010s-era DIY Brooklyn music scene - you wouldn’t necessarily think that from hearing the music, the production value of the record and the imagery is of timeless high quality. But there is this element of the scrappy Silent Barn energy and I think that’s a compelling tension.

K: I’m always gonna land in that middle place, to be honest with you. It’s what I came from. I feel like I’m always blending these eras together - it’s part of what I’m really proud of.

Carlos additionally did a really good job stepping out and doing something he hadn’t really done before - it was something that really pushed him, as well. A lot of growth for both of us, if I could guess! It’s also my first time doing top-to-tail co-writing on an entire project. That’s something that we did naturally in bands, and there’s a necessary collaboration when you’re working in the studio with a producer, but this was very intentionally writing with conversation, writing with someone else.

MBB: You definitely arrived at a departure stylistically from your last record.

K: And that’s going to keep happening, honestly.

MBB: What’s on the horizon for you? What are the next few things you’re excited about?

K: I’m continuing to chisel out the live show - I’m going to be adding stuff to it. I have some shows in Europe again - blessings - in the Fall. Big performances, traveling, I’m gonna get back into the studio - because I actually love it. And you know? Also just try to enjoy the summer.

MBB: We can’t grind all the time! We gotta eat soft serve, too.

K: Yeah, I want to enjoy the summer. I’ll be in Europe in June and July and then in the Fall, so…here I am. In this world.

MBB: Who else do you think I should talk to?

K: Two suggestions, both best friends.

First one, Monica Mirabile - she’s a choreographer and artist, she’s one half of the performance duo FlucT. She’s really into hypnosis right now and I recently sat in on one of her classes, it was amazing. She hits this amazing place between music, culture and performance, as well as getting people together in a community type of sense. Major person in my life. 

The other one I would suggest is Kathleen Dycaico - not a musician, but she is my creative partner and director and I think she has a really, really interesting perspective that a lot of artists could benefit hearing more from. She’s a shot of espresso.

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But what about you? What are you pushing yourself on? What brick wall are you speeding toward? Right now, what are your big thoughts and feelings?